Subject: (usr-tc) OT: Survey - Backhauling traffic from POP's

From: Scot Desort <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 05:14:09 +0000

Off-topic survey:

I am investigating some POP alternatives for our network. These POPs will be
dialup only. They will be co-located within the CLEC switch or remote
central office.

I am looking for information on how most of you backhaul the dialup traffic
to your networks. I find it curiously strange that more CLECs do not have
fiber in their facilities that connect them to IP backbones like UUNET,
Sprint or CW (at least that's the way it is here in NJ). My first
inclination was not to backhaul, but obtain a separate feed to one of the
backbones right in the colo/switch, but this is not an option. So, I am left
to backhaul.

What is the most cost-effective way to do this? Assuming that these POPs
will be relatively small, not requiring A DS3 to backhaul, how many PRI
dialup trunks can be supported for each T1 backhaul to my network? Or, is
there a more efficient way to do it? The CLEC's use a 3 to 1 rule -- 3 PRI's
with relatively moderate traffic can be supported by 1 T1 backhaul. I have
my doubts here as well.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcomed, off-list if you prefer.

--
Scot Desort
Network Operations Manager
NJ Internet Access
[email-masked]

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From: Mark Thornton <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 06:02:57 +0000

It's not a matter of how many PRI's per T1, but a matter of what your
customers are doing with the connections. We successfully ran 8 incoming
T1's via a single 'net T1 that was not heavily loaded until the 9th and 10th
incoming lines came up (the second 'net T1 was late, as is usually the
case). We also had numerous deicated accounts and colos as well. When the
latency started to rise we ordered the new circuits. All the while our
clients consistently rate our "speed" to be much better than our
competitors.

This is all changing right now though, because more users are doing
bandwidth intensive things. We have ordered additional 'net T1's to cover
the bandwidth growth, but we still are not pinched on the two we have with
16 incoming dialup T1's and PRI's from the telco.

Mark Thornton
San Marcos Internet, Inc.
512-393-5300

----- Original Message -----
From: Scot Desort <[email-masked]>
To: usr list <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 9:11 PM
Subject: (usr-tc) OT: Survey - Backhauling traffic from POP's

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From: Paul Farber <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 06:26:56 +0000

I would monitor the dropped packets instead of 'latentancy'.  There are to
many outside factors to influeance ping times.

FWIW I got 7 PRI's and a few ISDN/T-1 circuits into a single upstream
t-1... that includes running 2 game servers.

Paul Farber
Farber Technology
[email-masked]
Ph  570-628-5303
Fax 570-628-5545

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From: Mike Andrews <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 07:58:03 +0000

3 to 1 is ridiculously low.  We've got 6 PRI's worth of dialup traffic in
one remote pop, and the T1 heading there peaks at 880 kbps.  That carries
only dialup traffic; no dedicated lines or DSL or anything else.  I figure
I can get to at least 9 PRI's before I worry about getting a second T1
down there...

Here in Bellsouth land, running a T1 out to this site was the most cost
effective way to do it.  Call Forwarding doesn't scale past 10 lines in
Bellsouth land.  The alternative was Bellsouth's Extended Reach PRI, which
becomes uneconomical with only 2 PRI's...  at that point it was cheaper to
run a T1 ($458/month for 12 miles) than pay $400+/month PER PRI extra.

Running separate backbone connectivity into this particular location
wasn't economical either, because it was really a remote switch that Bell
backhauls to the one our main office is on anyway... and we would have had
to put in something like a Cisco 3640 (for running BGP internally) rather
than the 2511 we have now.  (And the async ports on the 2511 hook up to
the console ports on the Total Control nicely, so I can get into the cards
if the ethernet dies.)

Mike Andrews (MA12) * [email-masked] * http://www.bit0.com/
VP, sysadmin, & network guy, Digital Crescent Inc, Frankfort KY
Internet services for Frankfort, Lawrenceburg, Owenton, Shelbyville
"Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things."

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From: Kent Tambling <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 07:58:31 +0000

Can anyone recommend a solution for bonding (or multi-linking)
up to 4 64K B channels together from a client site into a HiperChassis?
Dial on demand as bandwidth requires?

I suppose if they had a PRI as well, but I as hoping for an ISDN
solution.  Who makes hardware like this?  Does it work?

ISDN is the only cost effective delivery in this customer's remote location.

Kent Tambling
[email-masked]
System Administrator
www.acceleration.net

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From: Charles Sprickman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 11:32:36 +0000

I have four Ascend Pipe400's waiting to be dusted off and sold... 4 BRIs
on each :)

Charles

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From: Scot Desort <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:35:50 +0000

So, it seems like the general rule that folks around here use is more like
6-8 to one. I suspected as much. Very interesting to hear how everybody is
doing it.

What about CLEC's in other states -- I would imagine that you are not
backhauling directly, but rather using something like frame to tie the
remote POP into your network.

--
Scot

>-----Original Message-----
>From: [email-masked]
>[mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Mike Andrews
>Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2000 12:55 AM
>To: usr list
>Subject: Re: (usr-tc) OT: Survey - Backhauling traffic from POP's
>
>

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From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 20:20:49 +0000

> Thoughts, comments, suggestions are welcomed, off-list if you prefer.

You should be able to backhaul 10-12 PRI's on a single t1, depending on
your paritcular user mix.

-----------------------------------------------------
Brian Feeny (BF304)     [email-masked]   
318-222-2638 x 109	http://www.shreve.net/~signal      
Network Administrator   ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) 	      

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From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 20:20:51 +0000

it just depends.  If your hitting markets that don't have BRI service you
can push it higher.  But if you have a good mix of isdn bri users, you
will have to use lower ratios

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From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 20:20:57 +0000

> Bellsouth land.  The alternative was Bellsouth's Extended Reach PRI, which

Call forwarding more than 1 call path is also a tariff violation :)

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From: Kevin Benton <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:49:33 +0000

> I can get to at least 9 PRI's before I worry about getting a second T1

<rest deleted>

That would be true if we all lived in warm climates where people have
other things to do...  We have a number of very rural pops in Ohio where
people spend a great deal of time on the net.  In places where there
aren't many fun things to do or when the weather is bad enough to keep
people inside, dialup to customer and data to dialup ratios go up.  When
there's more fun stuff to do, people spend less time on the net and when
they do, they're often too busy to spend a bunch of time doing a lot of
things.  The ROI on these POPs takes longer, though they do turn
profitable eventually. I could be way off base on this, but this is what
I've seen from our net.

Kevin

E-Mail:  [email-masked]
Web:     http://users.sota-oh.com/~s1kevin/
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