Subject: (usr-tc) Does 3Com Monitor List

From: Ted Mecimore <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:15:52 +0000

I was wondering if any 3Com folks are lurking out there. With all
the "adventure" dealing the DSP vs HCF battle I am wondering how they plan to
respond.

 -- 
Ted Mecimore
Operations Manager
Vista Technology

-
 To unsubscribe to usr-tc, send an email to "[email-masked]"
 with "unsubscribe usr-tc" in the body of the message.
 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

---

From: Ed <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:26:42 +0000

They don't... if so they should have responded to the Ascend vs. 3com issues
months ago. Customers apparently are expendable since they advertise like
AOL. I say stop all advertising until you fix your products 3com... funnel
those funds into your product and make it better than ever and blow the
competition away with superior products. Forget sending the next batch of
3com 3x5 cards with deals on it out to every service across the nation...
forget advertising in the trade rags... forget going to every trade show
around the country... forget smoozing the Sales team and there clients...
forget the "deals". Give us guts and glory... make the systems work the way
they should.

<steps down>

Ed

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Mecimore" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 10:02 AM
Subject: (usr-tc) Does 3Com Monitor List

I was wondering if any 3Com folks are lurking out there. With all
the "adventure" dealing the DSP vs HCF battle I am wondering how they plan
to
respond.

 --
Ted Mecimore
Operations Manager
Vista Technology

-

-

---

From: Denis Newkirk <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:32:22 +0000

I know if we had to do it all over again.. it wouldn't be with 3com.

We have purchased our last 3com equipment until we get commitment to fix 
problems instead of marketing hype.

Come to think about it... there have been many statements of commitment... 
we need real fixes.

We've even been thinking about swapping all our 3com equipment out, but now 
lucent owns Ascend and you never know what it will become.

-

---

From: Ted Mecimore <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:39:41 +0000

We are also looking at the ascend systems. The ascend/lucent marriage make us a
little unsure. I am not a fan of portmasters after fighting some we acquired.
The TC boxes are great when it is cranking. But...... I really need support,
when i need it. 24x7x365. It is hard to explain why "I can connect to xyz
provider, why can't i connect to you..."

 -- 
Ted Mecimore
Operations Manager
Vista Technology

-

---

From: Jeff Mcadams <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:08:40 +0000

Thus spake Ted Mecimore
>I was wondering if any 3Com folks are lurking out there. With all the
>"adventure" dealing the DSP vs HCF battle I am wondering how they plan
>to respond.

Yes...there are many 3Com folks on the list...most lurking, but they're
there.  In fact...last I checked...the main list was about 1/10 3Com
folks (that's 3com.com and usr.com domains).  Now...how much 3Com
*responds* to the list is still somewhat in doubt, but you do see some
responses on at least some subjects (my message yesterday morning about
the support contract has elicited a couple of calls now).

3Com is listening...we've yet to see how well they respond to it though.
:)  Kinda goes back to that beaurocracy thing I talked about a couple of
months ago I think.  :)
-- 
Jeff McAdams                            Email: [email-masked]
Head Network Administrator              Voice: (502) 966-3848
IgLou Internet Services                        (800) 436-4456

-

---

From: Mark Thornton <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:14:28 +0000

When was the last time you had a 3Com rep tell you that you are the only
site he/she knows that is experiencing these problems? How many times before
that with different reps? I think it is a trained response, whether we are
talking about TCH dialup systems or the TCH adsl systems.

The other thing that seems obvious to me is that the ISP business must not
be the driving financial group behing the TCH product. If it were then we
wouldn't be seeing all these weird add-on features like VOIP just so the
annual report can say they are in the market. Who really is the biggest
consumer of the TCH system?

Mark Thornton
San Marcos Internet, Inc.
512-393-5300

-

---

From: Brian Gordon <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:22:27 +0000

Whats going on with these HSP modem and how do you get them to connect to
Hiper DSP's.

These damn compatablity issues are killing me, when is V.90 going to WORK?

Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Thornton" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: (usr-tc) Does 3Com Monitor List

-

---

From: Jeff Mcadams <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:24:46 +0000

Thus spake Brian Gordon
>Whats going on with these HSP modem and how do you get them to connect
>to Hiper DSP's.

My understanding is that the HSP modems are just an HCF modem with sound
card functionality included with it.  So...proly need to handle them the
same way you do an HCF.
-- 
Jeff McAdams                            Email: [email-masked]
Head Network Administrator              Voice: (502) 966-3848
IgLou Internet Services                        (800) 436-4456

-

---

From: Ed <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 18:36:38 +0000

Jeff I believe they listen to you because they know you are fairly
intelligent on the 3com systems and you have been on this list helping
others for so long that others listen to you. However they aren't listening
to most people who complain... and they definitely aren't fixing certain
problems. 3com connectivity issues and v.90 problems aren't fixed and
haven't even been modified to my knowledge... Ascend is still kicking 3com's
butt in v.90 connects. Also Support Contract issues seem to elude them...
they cannot grasp such simple thinking as give a little and gain a lot.

If I were head of 3com I would be DEEPLY upset if people spoke about my
products in such a way. I would do something about it. Maybe the people who
would care don't see the list...? ShareHolders and Executives

Ed

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Mcadams" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: (usr-tc) Does 3Com Monitor List

Thus spake Ted Mecimore

-

-

---

From: Terry Kennedy <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 19:06:10 +0000

Someone on this list must know someone at 3com with some clout. Why doesn't
that person simply ask 3com to monitor the list and respond to the requests.
I know it sounds simplistic but if a few calls should get things rollings. I
don't many at 3com but I know vendors and they must know someone. Maybe we
can get together and figure out who knows the mightiest at 3com and push
until they particpate. Or we could just start signing people at 3com upto
list :)

Terry Kennedy
OlyPen, Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked]
[mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Ed
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 8:15 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: (usr-tc) Does 3Com Monitor List

Ed

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Mcadams" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: (usr-tc) Does 3Com Monitor List

Thus spake Ted Mecimore

-

-

-

---

From: Jeff Mcadams <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 19:15:09 +0000

Thus spake Ed
>others for so long that others listen to you. 

Well, I appreciate the implicit compliment there.  :)  I don't know that
*I'm* listened to particularly though.  I think 3Com really does listen
to the list as a whole, but perhaps because of the reasons you say (and
its hard for me to acknowledge that what you say is true since it comes
down to me evaluating myself which I suck at...we'll go with it though)
I've become known to folks within 3Com as someone that maybe has his
finger on the pulse of the list?  I dunno...kinda grasping at
explanations maybe.

I feel relatively confident though, that without the rest of the list
saying things as well, I wouldn't be listened to within 3Com just
because I'm a nice guy and help people.  :)  If I said something was a
problem and the rest of the list ignored what I was saying...I might get
*some* results just because I know a lot of people and I'm generally
good at agitating...but I doubt I would get very far.  :)

>However they aren't listening to most people who complain... and they
>definitely aren't fixing certain problems. 3com connectivity issues and
>v.90 problems aren't fixed and haven't even been modified to my
>knowledge... Ascend is still kicking 3com's butt in v.90 connects. Also
>Support Contract issues seem to elude them...  they cannot grasp such
>simple thinking as give a little and gain a lot.

I really think (and have even had some folks, which will remain nameless
here, within 3Com agree with me) that the problem is really one of
beaurocracy.  3Com is listening, and is working on the problems...just
not even close to the speed at which we think it should/could be done.
>From the discussions that I've had with folks about the support contract
issues...its seems that 3Com is trying to fix everything in one fell
swoop rather than taking little steps.  My opinion is also that 3Com
tends (again, this will probably sound familiar to many of you) seems to
be making decisions on where to go largely without the feedback from
customers.  While they are moving...and maybe mostly even in a forward
direction...without feedback and guidance from customers its just
terribly easy for 3Com to take a step to the side or back and not
realize it.

While I've gotten a couple of calls, as I mentioned, in the past couple
of days regarding the support contract issues...and this is a good
thing, at least a good start...this is largely an anomoly...most
decisions at 3Com seem to be made in a vacuum of customer input and
feedback.

Let me also qualify this a bit...I'm speaking with my experience with
Total Control...we don't have any other 3Com equipment (maybe a NIC or
two...nothing significant), so things on the enterprise (corebuilder,
netbuilder, pathbuilder, etc.) side of the house may be different...and
the feeling that I got up at Networks3 indicates that maybe it is
different on that side of things.  I don't know for sure though.

The enterprise side of things does have the 3Com user's group that
represents them fairly well apparently.  I know there have been some
people that wanted to get carrier folks involved with the user group
more...and I think I have even been told that there are some people
interested in getting a 3Com carrier (which would include ISPs) user
group started up as a seperate entity from the main user group.  I think
this would be a good idea and would definitely be involved.

>products in such a way. I would do something about it. Maybe the people
>who would care don't see the list...? ShareHolders and Executives

Well...I do know that there are some *fairly* high up people that are on
the list, but I suspect its rather too high of traffic for the likes of
the executive officers and such.  :)  I do know that *some* of the
content does make it up to them on occasion...which content I really
don't know, but some of it does.  :)
-- 
Jeff McAdams                            Email: [email-masked]
Head Network Administrator              Voice: (502) 966-3848
IgLou Internet Services                        (800) 436-4456

-

---

From: Greg Coffey <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 20:31:14 +0000

It seems that no matter how angry this list has gotten in the past, no 
acknowledgement ever came from 3Com regarding the subject.  I've been on 
the list for some time and times have been pretty heated 
occasionally.  There have been heated discussions about the old Netserver 
software and support issues.  Numerous times there have been discussions 
about 3Com client modems connecting at v90 rates with Ascend servers but 
not with 3Com servers.  The $$ for tech support (or lack thereof) comes up 
all the time.  Tech support has improved but most of us still have 
significant issues with it as is.  There is still a saliva test to prove 
who you are before anyone will talk to you.  If someone with clout is 
monitoring it, they have remained mute on any subject in here.

>:)  Kinda goes back to that beaurocracy thing I talked about a couple of

Thanks, Greg Coffey                               <[email-masked]>
Visionary Communications  V 307-234-5443    F 307-234-5446
100 N. Center Suite #100, Casper, WY  82601    www.vcn.com

-

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 20:35:51 +0000

> acknowledgement ever came from 3Com regarding the subject.  I've been on 

thats not entirely true.  This list banded together, and drafted a Top Ten
Unresolved Issues list, and then it was signed by dozens of
president/ceo's/admins and presented to 3com managment, from what I
understand, it went all the way to the top.

3Com responded officially to this with a document.  Results did follow on
many issues.

It helps to aggregate our complaints and put them in writing, otherwise we
are just a bunch of seperate incidents.

We can do this again.  It is my opinion that it should start with an
outline you know like:

I. ARC issues
   A. OSPF Broken
      1. default route disappears
II. DSP issues
   A. HCF modem compatibility
III. Support Contracts
.
.
.

etc.  Then each member of the list can take a chunk, write it up, and
someone could assmeble it.  We could then get 20, 30, 40 ISP's on this
list, which represents a significant amount of revenue, enough for them to
listen, and sign it.

I am not going to lead this, because I have alot going on right now, but I
would definitly take a few chunks of the outline and write up some
paragraphs.

We prioritise the issues, and this way we give them something to work off
of.

Brian

>  "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

-----------------------------------------------------
Brian Feeny (BF304)     [email-masked]   
318-222-2638 x 109	http://www.shreve.net/~signal      
Network Administrator   ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) 	      

-

---

From: Paul Farber <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:07:47 +0000

Good news and bad news... good news... I found a ton of info on
lucent/ascend produts for the new pop.

Bad news... 3Com got paid for my service contract 10/5/99 and it's 2/2/00
and I STILL can't get support, or my money back.

Sorry to have to screw a vendor... Ryan at Source Technology is right
behind Shawn Hogan of Datapoint Solutions (Optigold fame) as helpful dude
of the decade.  I need my money, or the support.

See ya'll on the ISP-equipment list and the ascend lists.

Paul Farber
Farber Technology
[email-masked]
Ph  570-628-5303
Fax 570-628-5545

-

---

From: Paul Farber <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:13:26 +0000

I remember a few years ago users made a big stink about the Netserver
platform, posted an open letter to the exec's at USR and posted the return
letter.

Mainly it was 'we're working on it for the TC ARC' as the standard
response.  Hey, the ARC probibly has more issues than the netserver did.
Someone got that originals so we can once again see history repeat itself?

I shouldn't have to beg for a good product.  I should have it thrust upon
me.

I'm starting to like my new sig line - 

See ya'll on the Ascend list!

Paul Farber
Farber Technology
[email-masked]
Ph  570-628-5303
Fax 570-628-5545

-

---

From: Kevin Benton <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:17:27 +0000

> terribly easy for 3Com to take a step to the side or back and not

Part of the problem is the fact that 3Com/USR allowed themselves to get
into contracts which would kill their ability to really promote things to
the smaller companies.  Part of the reason (for example) why Quad modems
have to have an X2/V.90 key is because of a contract 3Com signed with a
company (name escapes me but AT&T comes to mind).  I was told that
the contract states that all Quad modems that use X2/V.90 be licensed to
use it.  Those that aren't licensed to use the protocol are not authorized
to do X2/V.90.  This is why the keys are enforced.

Much in the same way, big telcos are required to pay for support on a per
chassis basis mostly because there are so many people who could possibly
administer them that there is no way that 3Com could effectively charge a
single dollar amount that would cover them for the ILEC's chassis's and
still offer a price competitive solution to small ISP's.  In order to
cover itself, 3Com had to make contractual agreements with those big
companies to make sure that they wouldn't "go under."

I have suggested a couple of times that 3Com work on a support contract
which would be offered per company specifically to people who had taken
the time to receive 3Com training.  That support would be available only
to those people listed on the contract who had been certified to have
taken and completed the training to some reasonable standard.  At
contract renewal time, they could be required to take a refresher
course or something.  That way, at least then they'd know that they
weren't dealing with 200 people who'd never seen what TCM looked like and
had no vested interest in learning the chassis enough to make sure that
they wouldn't need to be calling ever  time they wanted to busy out a
modem for example.  3Com would be able to make money on the training and
the support simply because people who would be calling in on those support
contracts would already have some minimum level of training - hence send
them straight to level two people or at least handle it a bit more
professionally than "unplug your card, set switch 6 on, then plug it back
in" before even bothering to find out what the problem is (been there,
done that :( ).

I now work for an ISP which has over 330,000 subscribers and there are
some tech's out there (within our company) which don't know TC's well at
all.  I am beginning to see why there's a charge per chassis on contracts.
Oh, by the way, our company does not have a support contract.  Are you
kidding?  We purchase enough chassis per week that would cover us for an
entire year of free warranty support.  It's not their fault that they
don't know it - they just haven't been well exposed to it.  What should
3Com do if we were to ask for a single support contract for our entire
company?  Now that wouldn't be fair to the little guy if they didn't base
it somehow on the number of chassis's we owned...  It might be a bit more
fair if the contracts were time based.  I will leave that up to 3Com.

Kevin

E-Mail:  [email-masked]
Web:     http://users.sota-oh.com/~s1kevin/
Unsolicited advertisements processing fee: $50 subject to change without notice

-

---

From: "Lon R. Stockton, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:20:39 +0000

On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Mark Thornton wrote:

> be the driving financial group behing the TCH product.

I still maintain my theory that 3com is shooting for the big telco
carriers' business for TCH. Such a market is already conditioned to
paying premium prices for equipment. They're already conditioned to
paying extortionate prices for service contracts without question. And
that market makes the handful of million$ that this list's users
represent look like small potatos in comparison.

Why should 3com even care about pipsqueak ISPs who only have a couple
of chassis'...or even larger ISPs who have a couple mill$ worth of
chassis, when they can be spending their time courting a market that
spends billions$ at a time?  Not to mention that said market won't be
whining about service contract pricing...they just file for a rate-
increase tarriff to cover the added expense.

-

---

From: Kevin Benton <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:22:45 +0000

> acknowledgement ever came from 3Com regarding the subject.  I've been on 

Ditto, however, if you talk to your sales rep, you're more likely to get a
straight answer than here.  I'm not trying to defend 3Com, however, I do
know that talking to our sales rep helped us understand things a bit more
from the inside.

Kevin

E-Mail:  [email-masked]

-

---

From: "Lon R. Stockton, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:28:28 +0000

> different on that side of things.  I don't know for sure though.

Consumer side better WRT support. I'm a big fan of their OfficeConnect
stuff; I use the hubs and switches and, for smaller clients, their
ISDN LANmodems.

Granted, with your typical ethernet switch, tech support isn't much of
an issue....it either works or it's broken. But if it's broken, you
can call 'em and get an RMA number without any troubles or DNA testing.

And for things like the LANmodem, current code is available to anybody
who wants it off of the website.

Like it should be.

-

---

From: Kevin Benton <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:29:47 +0000

On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Brian wrote:

I. ARC issues
   A. OSPF Broken

Add...  II.B. Complete testing routines for TCM (like the quads)
       III.A. Make Support Contracts available on a per-engineer basis.

Kevin

E-Mail:  [email-masked]

-

---

From: "Lon R. Stockton, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 22:05:30 +0000

> of the decade.  I need my money, or the support.

I dunno about Datapoint Solutions, but *everyone* at Source Technology
rocks. Well, everyone I've spoken to.

*IF* I consider TCH equipment in the future, it's because of the people
at Source and the people on this list....not 3com (well, except the 3com
people who partipate here....Krish & Mike, et.al. rock too).

-

---

From: Lists <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 00:20:32 +0000

> carriers' business for TCH.

I believe you are correct.  Around the time 3COM took on USR, we lost our
account rep and were told that only the large telco's were allowed to have
rep's.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Purdon,                          Ground Floor, Marine Board Building
Technical Manager (Tas/Vic),                  1 Franklin Wharf, Tas 7000
Southern Internet Services.                            +61 (3) 6234 7444

-

---

From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 00:38:54 +0000

> account rep and were told that only the large telco's were allowed to have

So thats why I never see our 3com rep anymore..........how lame.  I think
that really did alot for strengthing relationships.  I did have lunch with
an Ascend rep about 6 months ago though.  Then he came back with 3 other
guys and we went to lunch again.........vendor kissing up or good service?
I don't know.............when 3com sent a rep, I believe that was good
service, knowledgable, always filled us with ideas to buy more stuff, and
it worked alot of times, we had someone on a first name basis I could talk
to to cut thru the bureacracy.........

Brian

-