Subject: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90

From: Steve Rivera <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:16:09 +0000

In Stock, Tested thru TCM.
All Modems flash v90
NMC v90 enabled.
Can configure chassis's to your specifications. (digital, analog/digital)
USR Technician available for hire. install assistance, configuration at 
your ip address.

Quad Digital Bundles include: $4500 or BO
Chassis with Dual 45A power
Netserver PRI
NMC v90
12- Digital Modems
Dual PRI

Quad Analog/Digital Bundles include: $6000 or BO
HD Chassis with integrated fan tray, single 70A power
nmc v90 enabled
hiper arc
12- Quad analog/digital modems
dual pri

WTB: Hiper DSP's!!!
....................................................
Worldwide Provider of Network Hardware Since 1981.
Steve Rivera - v-732-833-2111 /  732-433-5890 24Hr
Email Page [email-masked]
  http://www.ISP-NetworkHardware.com  or http://www.wrca.net
Cisco, Ascend, Livingston, USR, Microcom, Motorola
Computone, Kentrox, Adtran...and more

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From: Paul Farber <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:42:30 +0000

Holly shit!  I can sell my unsupport, end of life, out of date 2059 bundle
for $4500!  Hmmm... a Patton 2810 is only $3600 NEW.

Paul Farber
Farber Technology
[email-masked]
Ph  570-628-5303
Fax 570-628-5545

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From: Steve Rivera <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:52:25 +0000

Holly Shit! yes you can :)

  	

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From: Randy Cosby <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:14:32 +0000

How many ports on a Patton 2810?  I see info at http://www.patton.com about
the 2800, with UP TO 30 ports (E1 I assume).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of Paul Farber
> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 10:46 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
>
>

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From: Paul Farber <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:58:38 +0000

E1's ain't available in the US.

Paul Farber
Farber Technology
[email-masked]
Ph  570-628-5303
Fax 570-628-5545

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From: Randy Cosby <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:07:20 +0000

Obviously.  So we're going to get 24 or 23 ports with the patton.  And we're
comparing that to a 48 port TC.  Yeah,  it's old, unsupported, but the price
isn't REALLY that bad. :)

Randy Cosby
InfoWest, Inc.
435-674-0165 x11
Fax: 603-462-6427
---
http://www.infowest.com
http://www.devshed.com
http://www.32bit.com

"A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships were built for" - Grace
Hopper

> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 5:04 PM
> Subject: RE: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90
>
>

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From: Paul Farber <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:18:27 +0000

It's old, unsupported, dosen't do mlppp, has routing problems, an
underpowered CPU, not enough RAM, slow management card.

For the cost of an old, outdate 2059, you can get the same ports (48) for
slightly more out of patton.

How many ISP's leased 2059's with FMV cause we KNEW they were going to be
discontinued... yet resellers are jacking the price up to 4500 on these
486 based RASes?

I hate when businesses screw themselved... knowingly.

Paul Farber
Farber Technology
[email-masked]
Ph  570-628-5303
Fax 570-628-5545

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From: Mark Thornton <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:41:23 +0000

First, why are you discussing Patton on this list?

Second, I don't respect or purchase from companies that use misdirection in
their advertising or market position. The Patton doesn't do 30 or 60
channels, vs 3Coms 'limit' of 48. I don't care what it will do in Europe,
and I hate people who use apples and oranges comparisons.

Third, there is absolutely no mention of MLPPP, or even more critical to
those who are growing, Multi-chassis MLPPP. You certainly won't be able to
minimize redundant D channel usage in large aggregations of dialup lines.

Fourth, I'm supposed to purchase a mission critical piece of equipment from
someone who built modem sharing devices up until last year?

Mark Thornton
San Marcos Internet, Inc.
512-393-5300

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Farber <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 7:23 PM
Subject: RE: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90

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From: Paul Farber <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:10:16 +0000

My gripe is that they are still asking $4K for NETSERVER based gear.

MLPPP or even Multi chassis MLPPP is still kinda new to the Total Control
cards.  ISDN connections are even worse than .v90 connections.... a large
percentage of ISDN calls will somehow lose routing when  MLPPP to a TC.

3Com dropped the dial up market about 1 year ago.... look at the new
'features' they've been incorporating in TC, VoIP, Cellular, etc.  When
the damned things can reliably take a phone call and route the packets
using something other than RIP (yeah, OSPF is in their but from what I
read it's not the most reliable beast), THEN add bells and whistles.

I've been wanting a pure dial up RAS for a while... nothing as complex as
TC for handeling mass marketed dial up access.... looks like Patton
listened.

And there is NO WAY a NETSERVER based chassis is worth $4K.  Christ, they
were only $10K NEW.

Paul Farber
Farber Technology
[email-masked]
Ph  570-628-5303
Fax 570-628-5545

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From: Greg Coffey <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:42:21 +0000

I paid $16k each for mine new but that was before they became a mass market 
product.  8-)

They are going for $4k or so all over the place.

>And there is NO WAY a NETSERVER based chassis is worth $4K.  Christ, they

Thanks, Greg Coffey                               <[email-masked]>
Visionary Communications  V 307-234-5443    F 307-234-5446
100 N. Center Suite #100, Casper, WY  82601    www.vcn.com
_________________________________________________________

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From: Steve Rivera <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:02:30 +0000

Look what I started with a simple post to sell some equipment :)
I will work with you on the prices. Nothings ever written stone.

You guys continue to look at the product as a commodities rather than a 
solution. Being on the
other side of the table. I see the USR as a cross-platform competitor to 
the AS5248,
PM3, Max 4048.Taking  into consideration, The market value of the AS5248 
$6500+/-,
PM3 $6500+/-, Max4048 $6500+/-. The USR Total Control at $4500+/-  is a steal..

I know the machine has it shortcomings but they all do depending on who you 
are talking to.
And another thing to consider is that most of the ISP out there are not 
complex operations.
Many dont even have digital circuits.

Just some food for thought.

If you are one of the guys who like the USR equipment and are looking for 
anything, dont be afraid to contact me.

  I look forward to helping you out :)

At 08:31 AM 03/31/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>I paid $16k each for mine new but that was before they became a mass 
>market product.  8-)
>

Email Page [email-masked] (start message with YOUR email address)

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From: John Schmerold <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:01:48 +0000

I hate wheeling / dealing.  You say your price of $4,500 is not set in
stone.  So if I pay $4,500, either I am a schmuck or you are a crook.  Which
is it?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Rivera" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: (usr-tc) FS: USR TC v90

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From: Jeff Mcadams <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:06:05 +0000

Thus spake Paul Farber
>My gripe is that they are still asking $4K for NETSERVER based gear.

Personally...I wouldn't pay a dime for NETServer gear at this
point...*shrug*

>cards.  

Actually...the TC gear has done MP for quite some time now.  MPIP has
been solid on the Arcs for quite some time now as well.  MP on the
NETServers worked fine...MPIP, however, *never* worked on the
NETServers.

>ISDN connections are even worse than .v90 connections.... a large

Hrmm...I've never had any trouble with this on Arcs.

>'features' they've been incorporating in TC, VoIP, Cellular, etc.  

Yeah...I don't have any great desire for VoIP and Cellular
capabilities...but can see where some would.

>When the damned things can reliably take a phone call 

Agreed...though this is a DSP thing...yes, the DSP code still needs to
be made more reliable...5% connect failure seems to be the going
rate...that's high...though some of the blame is with crap client side
modems.

>and route the packets using something other than RIP (yeah, OSPF is in
>their but from what I read it's not the most reliable beast), THEN add
>bells and whistles.

true, true.  OSPF needs to have its feature set filled out more.  Other
routing protocols should be added.  BGP would be one that I'd like to
see actually...though that would be a lower priority.  I definitely
agree with you here...get the basic functionality down and *SOLID*
before moving development assets elsewhere.

>I've been wanting a pure dial up RAS for a while... nothing as complex
>as TC for handeling mass marketed dial up access.... looks like Patton
>listened.

Yeah...the problem there, being...there's really not much market anymore
for a *pure* dial up RAS.

Besides...a RAS really is a router...and to build a good RAS, you're
really building a good router with extra features.  (a RAS is a router,
but a router isn't necessarily a RAS)  Agreed, you can still make a good
router/RAS that's not as complex/complicated as the TC...but then
again...the TC is a very flexible and powerful RAS...I can see the need
for something simpler in places.

>And there is NO WAY a NETSERVER based chassis is worth $4K.  Christ,
>they were only $10K NEW.

Considering that NETServers are inherently broken in several ways, I
tend to be of the opinion that anyone selling one for anything other
very limited solutions is pretty much committing fraud.  But
then...that's just my $.02.
-- 
Jeff McAdams                            Email: [email-masked]
Head Network Administrator              Voice: (502) 966-3848
IgLou Internet Services                        (800) 436-4456

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From: Steve Rivera <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:16:28 +0000

Welcome to reality.

Most people rather wheel and deal to ensure a good purchase price.
If it is all  written in stone you are better off going to local retail outfit.

Good luck finding a total control at Comp USA.

At 01:56 PM 03/31/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>they

  	

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From: Paul Farber <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 00:40:11 +0000

Not argueing the VALUE of these boxes... just amazed at the PRICE.

Historically, USR/3Com gets TOP dollar for their stuff.  A sportster is
still $130.. a 3c509 is still $100.

Paul Farber
Farber Technology
[email-masked]
Ph  570-628-5303
Fax 570-628-5545

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From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:40:51 +0000

> And there is NO WAY a NETSERVER based chassis is worth $4K.  Christ, they

Unfortunatly, bells and whistles is what fuels the market.  Big places
want to see those features (telcos, etc) so you have to be working on them
to stay competitive, or else you blink, and your behind.

FWIW, Netserver chassis were $30k+..................they only dropped to
$10k after being out for a while, and towards the end.

>  "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

-----------------------------------------------------
Brian Feeny (BF304)     [email-masked]   
318-222-2638 x 109	http://www.shreve.net/~signal      
Network Administrator   ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) 	      

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From: Brian <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:40:59 +0000

> before moving development assets elsewhere.

In all fairness, just about every vendors OSPF is broke to an
extent................I have seen problems with OSPF on just about every
platform.........and yes that includes Cisco.  One of the main reasons
large networks use IS-IS instead of OSPF on Cisco, is because IS-IS just
works..........OSPF has always had its problems on Cisco though

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